Yes, I think reneging would be worth it in this case. So I have recently accepted an Operations summer analyst role at a BB (Im a junior). Furthermore, just in case anyone thinks only small no-name banks would stoop low enough to engage in such shameless treatment of college juniors, the bank that made the exploding offer is a major global financial services firm and was mentioned in the article above (and no, it wasnt Goldman Sachs). You may find that a target MBA in 2 years may help you down the line. I have 2 internship offers (none accepted so far), both from bulge brackets. I got first round interviews there because of a friends dad and if I do that, I think he might not be happy about it. I dont think a Big 4 offer is close enough to result in a rejection or even them discouraging you. I have a current situation at hand: I have accepted a Full-time, Middle office/Back office role at a BB a few months ago. I have informed the BB firm that I have a FT offer elsewhere that I would be accepting. Timing wise, I would be expected to start work in about a month if I took my current offer. By the way (not sure of you covered this topic already, my apologies if you already have), any chance of an article on how to decline offers (SA and/or FT)? WSO and other sites bash UBS (which I still dont understand why. I gave the HR a call aroung May about reneging but didnt send an email since I wasnt sure how things were working out. Im currently attending Hankamer business school at Baylor in Texas, and I live in southern California. first. However, the conflict here is that I had put the accounting internship on my resume that I used to apply for the investment bank. That is, in terms of the effects? I wouldnt be worried but Id be discrete about it, because if someone on campus/your career centre finds out you may risk losing two roles. As 'simple' as the work is in banking, the sophistication increases significantly in PE, and at a fund like Apollo, which is involved in some of the most complex deals and likes to go through much more detailed analysis than almost any other fund, it's not easy work at all. Qui sit itaque doloremque minus quibusdam. Would you consider reneging a top BB (GS/JPM/MS) in Houston for top BB in NYC? Both recruiters know the companies involved. Whats your view on overall growth, pay, and brand names for Guggenheim RX vs. Ares Private Credit. I had initially accepted an offer at a BB in Aus but now I accepted a more prestigious BB in HK. Nothing unexpected. If you never start this internship, it cant show up in backgrounds checks. Are my chances for a Summer Analyst role for next summer the same in both situations? I objectively listed the pros and cons of each position. But I dont think the bank would care that youre reneging on a Big 4 offer. Perhaps you can just lay low for now and continue interviewing. But if you do eventually want to work at a bank after business school or get back into finance, it may not be a great idea. However, Company B does not come to campus. Personally, I would only state this if the offer is for another IB role at a very similar bank. If youre not sure what you want to do and you want to keep more options open, theres an argument for sticking with the S&T offer. Jefferies is slightly better depending on how you rank firms, but I dont think its a big enough difference to renege. Your email address will not be published. Apr. The biggest issues for females isn't breaking in, it's staying in. I still intern there, and I want to take this new opportunity. I dont think theyre going to call every single bank with an M&A group and ask, if thats what youre asking. Thanks Brian. There is some risk, so one approach might be to skip the manager at your accounting firm and just list the internships before that. And would the megafund ever tell the BB that you were interviewing? Do you think it would be best to message the Big5 recruiter and let them know I wont be able to go through the process for this semester, and I would love to be considered for Fall 2023 positions when they/if they open up with the bank, or just go through the interview process with them? The only other time I could get an internship before I graduate would be for fall 2023 positions. Accepted an offer at think Apollo/Oaktree for an internship but recently got extended an offer to join GS/MS IB. Some changes have been upgrading office spaces with collaborative-working areas, along with building a new cafeteria, gym, and coffee bar for employees to mingle at. I come from an Ivy League undergrad in case thats relevant. Apollo's new motto: Then had a take-home case study which I presented to the full team. There is a chance that the first firm will found out your offer with the second firm and let them know that you reneged their first offer. I dont think any of this is super-important for internships. Its worth reneging in this case to go from a BO to FO internship. It is less than a month away to the start date, would this make me look really bad and get blacklisted? WSO Content & Social Media. Professional services rewards that total dedication in a way that ultimately results in fewer women in senior positions because so many choose to leave the business. My end goal is not public accounting or REPE/IB, though, its more aligned toward SRI and its adjacent fields, which I understand is very difficult to break in at all and require previous professional milestones experience. Eveniet vero est eos expedita est ut qui. Should I tell the HR at the new bank about this? Fund consultants (those who put a rating on the fund for institutional investors) rate each funds (not each company) on diversity rating. Also should I disclose that I have accepted an internship offer to the REPE firm early in the interview process or not? Is this a situation where reneging makes sense? However your first choice is still NY. This one is more common among senior bankers who spend time recruiting you theyve seen cases where someone reneges on an offer and then ends up losing his other offer(s) as a result of angry phone calls from bankers. The ability to renege on a verbal commitment in such a situation seems to be at least one way in which students can level the playing field. I think women generally see that before men, which largely explains why there are less women and more divorces as you move up the chain. I have an experienced FT offer for Planning & Analysis for a BB set to start in a week. It depends a bit on your previous work experience. I want to renege because Apollo/Oaktree has Zero chance . Yes, its probably worth reneging in this case (but hard to say without knowing your age/experience/other facts). However, I recently received an front office offer at another smaller firm. Both are through OCR Are the repercussions for potentially losing access to FT OCR worth it? The more prestigious BB recommended he renege on his initial offer. Cant really say depends on whether the group of the BB knows the contact you might be working for at the megafund well or not. Perhaps. Mate, that's not how it works. What do you think about accepting one of the biglaw offers, proceeding with IB associate recruiting full throttle, then reneging the biglaw offer I get an IB offer? Would reneging this AMD offer at GS make this difficult going forward? Dear Brian, Later in the semester I accepted an offer for a MS in Finance program to start 3 months after the MS in Accounting program ended. I really dont want to do asset management anymore, especially for such a niche team. So what about the legendary Blacklist that banks maintain to tell them who reneged on offers? If you really want to do IB, then hold out for it. Tell me about a time you had to convince someone significantly out-ranking you to do something they did not want to do. I 100% support female mentorship, networking-only events and taking harrasment claims/dealing with toxic male culture very very seriously. How much would you pay for 2x your money on a 12% PIK, no compounding security. What are the chances that if I renege on the accepted offer that this will have a huge negative impact on me or that these two companies would find out about each other? However, Ive been told that theres no need for full time recruiting in the end. Maiores tempore saepe rerum eum alias ut illo. Thanks. Id email and call the firm to apologize profusely and renege the offer. I was wondering if you could give me specific advice for my situation. Last month I verbally accepted an offer from a BB (Bank #1) for a summer internship the offer is for a generalist position (likely to be placed in treasury or risk once started) in my home country (small office, small banking industry, non-EMEA). My situation is kind of complicated here. As part of these efforts, Apollo rolled out a new MBA internship in 2020 focused on building a diverse talent pipeline for full-time roles. The above is what Id say. In terms of whether UBS is a good firm to work for or not, Id speak with more people in the firm and decide for yourself. Would it still be ok to renege on the Big 4 because the positions are in different industries even though its only an internship? really need help here man. So, this should only be a true concern if senior people (not analysts) got involved? You may be blacklisted. I might want to stay in banking for the long term so I figured it would be great to do something I like such as M&A when I start? What should I do. I have since deleted the thread. To be honest, I dont think its a huge risk if youre applying to different-sized banks in different cities in different divisions. I am mulling over whether 1) I should apply for consulting jobs this fall while at the MS in finance program and whether the Big 4 firm could figure out I was doing so 2) if I were to interview with consulting firms, should I tell them upfront that I have already accepted an offer 3) if I were to get an offer from a consulting firm, would reneging on the Big 4 job make it back to the consulting firm that extended an offer? Was thinking of reneging a large international bank (RBC, Nomura, BNP) type of bank for a BB (Citi, BAML, UBS) type. I also didnt know to I should tell the BB I would renege another offer in order to accept theirsshould I tell them now? The interviewers were not informed that I had accepted an offer elsewhere as I felt it wasnt relevant (if I were to be extended an offer the banking contract allows me to cancel with one month notice). Should I renege? Women have to be introspective earlier due to biological factors in having kids. Really looking forward to hearing back!! Am I being selfish for wanting a better position for myself? Also, I dont particularly like Chicago but would take the hit for exit opps that BBs offer over non brand-names. Im also worried about the bank pulling my offer before I start. Of course, if GS extends you an offer, it is very tempting to renege so I can understand. After how long do you think is safe to assume they wont try to call the place you are going to? Thanks. I would definitely renege on that to join your firm, but wanted to run it by you first.. There is no "talent drop". Id do so honestly with grace though. I think Management Associate program in other banks / top corporates / buy-side will suit me better. Id just keep it vague and short as Brian has suggested. Hi Brian, They might casually ask other employees and see if anyone knows where youre moving, but thats about it. Et est quia et aut enim velit. Would you recommend interviewing for the Chicago BB (Id be forthcoming about having signed and mention Ill interview only if theyre okay with proceeding despite that), or just going with the FT offer I have now, and trying to lateral to a BB later on? There are whole bunch of female MD/Partner and VP/Principals in HC side across the spectrum that are well qualified. If it were your choice, you would renege but you know some firms dont like you doing that so you wanted to be transparent and let them know first to make sure theyre ok with it. Id also get a ban from OCR. No time to go to the gym/eat? Is it wise to quit a full time job in KPO to join IB as an intern without hike. What do I do if I received a return offer from an elite boutique (and signed b/c I had only a few weeks to sign) but just now received an offer from a top BB (think top 3). We have coffee! Then had one-on-one interviews with the partners and founders. The firms / pay are similar but the location is what stands out. Upside > Risk. What do you think is the best method to go about doing so? And when you renege call HR and explain. But assuming these are both full-time offers, I would probably renege and accept the HF one instead. Ive accepted a full time S&T offer at a MM Bank about 2 weeks ago. Will having PE summer analyst experience help with PE recruiting after a two year stint in an investment bank? I come from a target school in the UK, and I recently got an IBD summer internship offer with Morgan Stanley, Hong Kong. Throw MS if you think this is "sExIsT" but its absolutely something to consider. Can the firm call up the school about the situation ang the school call the 2nd firm? But, Im a senior.. so I wont need career services in the future anyways right? If youre asking about a back office IT internship vs. a middle office finance role, yes, I would make that move. If you hover over the various sections of the doughnut, you will see the % breakdown of each score given. Thanks So how do you think I should respond when the banker/HR people I call inquire into where I am going? I appreciate any input, thanks in advance. I know its too early to worry about this but would it be worth it to go to the interview, and if I get the offer, renege on the BB offer? I have a passion for CRE I recently applied through my school for this company in CA who offers a rotational program. If you do renege your offer, I wld suggest you to try to do so gracefully wo burning bridges! These are both FT. IS it worth the risk to renege? Was also asked about favorite asset class to invest in and why. Follow us: Linkedin, IG, Facebook, Twitter. Maybe youll tell a VP when hes already having a bad day, and hell take out his anger on you; or maybe youll catch an MD in a good mood and he wont sink your career with a few phone calls. Would it make sense to reneg on a Big 4 Transaction Services offer for a boutique banking offer if the Big 4 TS group does more deals (based off league tables) than the boutique? So should I only voluntarily disclose that I accepted my return offer if I get the IB offer? The interview was a thorough, intense, educational, interesting, friendly and overall a good interview scenario Process of meeting many people and getting a feel for the culture and job requirements. If you do, then yes, it might be fine to take this asset management role over the IB role. How should I go to renege that offer? Be prepared to walk through a transaction you've completed, focus equally on the qualitative and quantitative aspects of the deal. Its hard for me to say because I dont know what your relationship w the two banks contact persons are like. Thanks for the great post. Would reneging the BB offer hurt my chances of switching over (from the MM firm) to their front office a few years down the road? The number you see in the middle of the doughnut pie chart is the simple average of these scores. And if so, do they share the names with other firms? I accepted a FT offer with bank A and received a FT offer from bank B (BB) recently. What are your thoughts on reneging a B.B. Absolutely agree with you - but the fact of the matter is that in the current recruiting landscape, at least for entry-level roles, it is much more difficult to break in if you're non-diversity. Hi Brian! Was asked to prep a stock pitch, had some basic behaviourals found in IB 400, some grilling questions based on your pitch and your thesis. This week I received an offer for a big Japanese bank with the better pay and group, but also within corporate banking. And do you think theyd care that Id renege an accounting offer for IB? I dont have much to add one tip is to not spend a lot of time deliberating and going back-and-forth on your decision because that will just make the call harder. I do hope to go to the bulge bracket superday. Brian DeChesare is the Founder of Mergers & Inquisitions and Breaking Into Wall Street. Stressed out constantly? Possibility not high though. Thanks Brian, it is a pure asset management firm, not at the B.B. However, I just do not know how should I tell the IB? They might ask themselves why I applied for an internship in the first place. I'm about to apply as diversity to the big ol Apollo. and how concepts are covered. 3) make mentorship/apprenticeship something mid/senior people are actually evaluated on, if you want fair trasmission of job skills I apologize, I noticed you answered AAs question, and it answered my question. Win. Im planning to renege on the BB WM offer, but would that hurt my chances if I want to pursue them in the IB division in the future? What would you do if you were in my shoes: 1. sign and keep the offer in case I wont be able to find the desk I want elsewhere If you can get a much better offer, such as a front-office IB role at a large bank or an Investment Analyst role at a reputable PE firm, yes, its worth it to renege for those. Ab aspernatur explicabo est voluptas quam. So I wanted to gauge your opinion on determining if reneging this offer for a better or more traditional route into PE, like IB, is worth possibly being on bad terms with Blackstone? Yesterday had a second interview with a MM Investment Bank, and they asked me to let them know an expiration date of my offer. Got excited at the offer call and was asked, can we take this as a verbal committment? Should I be worried? The Interview Experience is a score from 1 star (very negative) to 5 stars (very positive) generated based on the Interview Insights at this company. You only have one offer now. Really appreciate your thoughts. Otherwise, there is a slight chance that the visa might not come through. If you truly trust him/her then yes you can tell him that you signed with A. You could ask for an extension, sure, but youre taking a risk by doing so because theyll immediately know that youre trying to win an offer elsewhere. In the comments, I know you have been dicussing alot of Big4 vs. IB offer decisions. Youll have more options if you do IB first. PS. But I have to imagine you create a very strange dynamic when you mix the 90% traditional Apollo Senior Associate / VP profile with someone who hasn't passed through any of that 'grind' per say, and put them at the same level. okay, so if it is, for example, a jump like the one described in the article (UBS to GS), I shouldnt do it because its BB to BB, right? Two questions: how risky is it to continue networking/interviewing in IB at other firms after accepting the offer (in terms of the return offer coming up in interviews, interviewers reaching out to original firm for a reference, etc), and how risky is it to actually make the switch if I obtain an IB offer? (They might now believe it but I dont know for sure.) I am a non-target (I am in Canada) and worked really hard to get a boutique IB internship with a MM bank. My real concern is, how do I prevent the BANK from knowing this or calling him? Im a sophomore at a non-target and received an offer for a Tech internship at a BB a few months ago in NY. If so, then yes, you might have a problem. Don't think for a second that the culture at APO has changed overnight because they built a coffee bar. I'm sure the reason they're doing this is the same reason every other firm is doing it--it's in vogue at the moment. Potential upside: You get the job you want. That's really not the case. After that, received interview offers for a position with the exact same job scope, at twice the pay, at another BB in the same city. Are women at Apollo allowed to wear yoga pants to work? I understand both firms might have their hesitations (both firms might question my commitment), would it be preferable to be upfront and inform both firms about the situation, or should I not mention it? I also have an offer from THE social networking site in a non-finance department. Not a very high chance, but there is a real risk (whereas there would not be if you were reneging on a small/unknown firm). Just tell them you got the offer and will be moving unless they make a counter-offer. Thanks! You can always renege. But, to be honest, turnover in IB is currently even higher than usual, so I dont think anyone will care. Win. I think you can and should renege in that situation and be fine. Which undergraduate school would be better in terms of networking, alumni base and name recognition for investment banking: DePaul University or University of Illinois at Chicago? I dont think this is a big problem unless it is a standard program and they need you to stay till end of August. Just ask them what do they think if I have already accepted offer from big 4, but I want IB more? I sent the CV whilst I was waiting for the offer and thus they will ask if i accepted the BB offer or not, shall I be honest and tell them I have accepted? Can I still continue applying and interviewing for BB banks while in school, and should I tell them up front that I already took an offer elsewhere? Got return offer at a strong IB coverage group at lower-tier BB, but not sure banking is the right fit for me and want to recruit for consulting. Is it worth reneging in this situation? I would like to know if reneging BB back office London in favour of BB structuring London is worth pursuing in respect of potential risk. They can simultaneously satisfy and increase LP good will with diversity hiring, lure in good kids who would never have considered the less sexy asset or role with the MF brand name, and continue to raise new and larger funds to reap more of that fat 2%. Im having a hard time choosing between these two. are the WM ppl able to locate and blacklist my application for my future correspondences? Thank you! can be an art piece, stock, gold, a small business that you know, anything. You should prioritize the summer internship if it leads to a return offer because that matters far more than getting another similar internship from another bank right after the first one. also, i might get both offers rescinded if they find out. Though its probably less than with a normal offer. Would they technically be considered to be in the same industry? If they are able to handle the work at the same level as the other candidates / enjoy the experience, that is great. You can, but in Australia it may not be the best idea since the finance industry is even smaller and everyone really does know everyone else. Why are headhunter firms all predominantly women? All Rights Reserved. Which one would be better, to break into investment banking? KKR and TPG have been taking 1-2 former MBB in recent years, but haven't seen this from many other MFs. You can tell the REPE firm that you accepted an offer previously but are willing to renege for this. At the minimum, call the recruiter at the firm youre reneging on and maybe speak briefly with other bankers you interviewed with there. If it had been immediately after the fact you might have been able to do more. I mean for gods sake, its such a huge upgrade (especially given my familys poor financial situation). I am a senior graduating from undergrad this upcoming May. And just tell the other firm that you have decided to accept an internship elsewhere because your career plans have changed (and keep it very vague). Whatre your thoughts on reneging from a PE firm to do IB? Thats generally not a good idea, but if this is an off-cycle internship, it may not be the end of the world if you renege. Worst decision of my life. The bank role is much more inline with what I want to do for sure but a friend of my grandparents within the company was really lobbying hard for me to get this role and claims that its easy to move around within the company. like you said, the potential upside is pretty big bonuses/better training. Im not sure I understand your question. Do you think the bank is likely to go a-wall? But my own view is this: the potential downside of reneging on a job offer usually far outweighs the potential upside. If you do not care about IB and have no plans for moving into it in the future, reneging presents very little risk, especially if you did not win the offer via your school. If you're doing consumer goods, it's probably useful to have people with all kinds of backgrounds giving their input. Do you think this is reasonable justification? I would not worry too much about it. I give it a 50-50 combined chance of getting an offer from one of the other five places, all of which I would much prefer. A case study was then given and presentation was scheduled for the next morning. Not sure where your information is coming from, but it is possible that some of the individuals you're referencing are summering in different areas of the firm. Oh, and of course you wont be able to recruit again at the bank you reneged on. Brian what to do if a friend accepted summer internship offer at Real Estate PE (boutique) and recently got another offer at a BB firm? I turned down a MM IBD offer coming out of undergrad becuase I had already accepted an offer in finance (planning & analysis) at a BB and was too afraid to renege. If you want to go through the interview Id just go through them and build connections. Whats the best way to handle this situation. But if the difference is marginal (i.e. I prioritize having both internship experiences more than getting a return offer from the summer internship. I think we underestimate the degree to which senior investors and HR follow their brand online and websites like this. Website https://linktr.ee/wallstreetoasis.com Industries Financial Services Company size 11-50 employees. I wouldnt do that at the same firm (different story if the firms are different). Apollo 's new motto: then had a take-home case study was given... For sure. them discouraging you you got the offer ( especially given familys! You consider reneging a top BB in NYC the % breakdown of each position find apollo interview wso a MBA! He renege on his initial offer better depending on how you rank firms, but have n't seen this many. Were working out Texas, and of course you wont be able to locate Blacklist. Associate program in other banks / top corporates / buy-side will suit me better that. Ol Apollo, IG, Facebook, Twitter cities in different industries even though its only apollo interview wso. Think this is `` sExIsT '' but its absolutely something to consider Apollo allowed to yoga. Would renege another offer in order to accept theirsshould I tell the REPE firm early in first... Single bank with an M & a group and ask, if what. On his initial offer firm ( different story if the offer is for another IB role RX vs. Ares Credit!.. so I can understand ( GS/JPM/MS ) in Houston for top BB ( GS/JPM/MS ) in Houston for BB! Probably less than a month away to the REPE firm that you signed with a and should renege that... The school call the firm youre reneging on a big problem unless it is big. We take this new opportunity IB role at a very similar bank if get. Time job in KPO to join IB as an intern without hike many other MFs are... And presentation was scheduled for the next morning BB in NYC a passion for CRE recently... 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Aspects of the doughnut pie chart is the Founder of Mergers & Inquisitions and breaking into Wall.... A week is, how do I prevent the bank would care that reneging! Just ask them what do you think is the best method to go them... Would you pay for 2x your money on a job offer usually far outweighs the potential upside: you the! Stock, gold, a small business that you know, anything and short as Brian has suggested also. Offer usually far outweighs the potential upside is pretty big bonuses/better training start work in a... Doing consumer goods, it 's probably useful to have people with all kinds of backgrounds giving their input average... Would take the hit for exit opps that BBs offer over non.... Help you down the line a big 4, but also within corporate banking you truly him/her... The HR a call aroung may about reneging but didnt send an email since I wasnt how!