I already had the conversation with them, so I told Auerbach I wouldnt play, so he got all irritated and said, I ought to talk to your mother, god damn it. He says, Anybody can get a god damn job. Thank you.' Tommy (Heinsohn)? Whenever Cal Ramsey calls Tom (Satch) Sanders, it's as if the two former NYU basketball stars, close friends since they attended Cooper Junior High School in East Harlem in the early 1950s, never . Satch loved life to the fullest and always had a positive attitude . Cousys view of the disease is far different now, after witnessing Havliceks rapid decline. His children called him Captain. to add information, pictures and relationships, join in discussions and get credit for your contributions. They followed suit. Dinner and dancing to benefit head and neck cancer research at Dana-Farber. "I have no explanation for this," Cousy says,"feeling as I do about social justice, being a captain of the team.". Dana-Farber and the Jimmy Fund assume no liability for inaccuracies that may result from using this third-party tool, which is for website translation. A lot of these guys Kevin Garnett have great deference to the history of the game. was doing, said Dave Cowens. In Legend, Satch Sanders, one of his Celtics teammates, . No. For a time, a cardboard sign read Boston Celtic Great Satch Sanders played here, though he never played on this court. But fortunately, I held up my hands and they didnt fire. Youre kind of reminded of your mortality as you go along, and you cant breathe anymore. "And Chuck and I somehow found out that there was a sleeper going through Raleigh that night at 12:30 to New York, with a connection to Boston.". I was ashamed to be white. The evening begins at 6 p.m. with a cocktail-hour and silent auction followed by dinner, dancing, and awards. Thomas "Satch" Sanders was one of the great defensive forwards in basketball. BOURNE, MASS. The thing I miss the most, being out of the player programs department in the NBA, is an opportunity to spend time with players and talk to them about real issues, personal issues. Sanders AKA Foster_Dawg is multi-talented. Cops were ready to go to the guns. Satch is survived by his loving wife Jody and cats Kona and Kaui. You have to be driven a little bit. Enjoy the players, the guys youre with, because in the end, as the years pass, the biggest thing for me has been the contact, the fun of being with the players. In response to a Trump diatribe about NFL players and their support of the exiled quarterback in 2017, Russell put his medal to use. I wish for him the best he can possibly have in his life at this point. However, I didnt do that. All those attributes were evident on last years team.. Sanders came to Harvard to coach after his retirement at age 34 from active play. Do you remember the news of them going into the league? Why didnt I get up and go across the room and give Russ a hug?' [6], "N.B.A. In the fall of 1963, the Celtics became Bill Russells team unless that had happened much earlier. Cal Ramsey was the leading rebounder in the country when he was at NYU. It was those players who helped teach a boy how to be a man. And we have to go whiz.". Tom 'Satch' Sanders, 8-time champion with Celtics, shares his thoughts on Boston's run to NBA Finals. Open Tuesday - Sunday 10am - 4pm, Closed Monday, The Basketball Hall of Fame All-America Team, The Mannie Jackson - Basketball Human Spirit Award(s), The Morgan Wootten Lifetime Achievement Award, The John W. Bunn Lifetime Achievement Award, Glenn Roberts and The Genesis of The Jump Shot, Wayland Baptist Flying Queens of 1948-1982, Basketball Hall of Fame Golf Classic at Monarch Beach Golf Links Hosted by Jerry West, MGM Springfield Hall of Fame Golf Classic, 2016 Karl Malone Award Watch List Narrowed to Ten Finalists, Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame Names Steiner Sports as Licensing Agent, Schedule and Match-Ups Announced for Boca Raton Beach Classic. In which the author, class of '42, recalls a rather quaint past and foresees a formidable future. When Celtics teammates Sam Jones and Satch Sanders were denied entry into a coffee shop in Lexington, Kentucky, during a trip for an exhibition game in 1961, Russell joined them when they decided . [Jayson] Tatum and [Jaylen] Brown are always competitive. Those are my favorite players. STURBRIDGE, Mass. "An opponent would take a shot and miss, and theres Russell rising, rising, 6'10", long, lean and springy getting the rebound and half-turning and snap-passing the outlet to Cousy," Pomerantz says. But other guys know what transpired. "Could he have done more? Two of those were blocks. But Cousys friends struck gold once Trump took office, successfully lobbying for the honor with West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin as the campaign spearhead. Everyone had a nickname, he remembers, great nicknames like Jumpshot Billy and Bad Feet Earl, California John. They were boys spending countless summers in upper Manhattan playing games, and Sanders nickname happened to stick. "They were a team struggling to find itself," Pomerantz says. Discover today's celebrity birthdays and explore famous people who share your birthday. [5] In 1978, Sanders became the head coach of the Boston Celtics, taking over for former teammate Tommy Heinsohn. Years passed. He graduated with a degree in marketing before making his way to the NBA, where he ran into racism in the form of unhelpful real estate agents at home he eventually moved into the predominately black Roxbury section of Boston and flying bottles, coins and racial epithets on the road. Sanders underwent knee surgery in 1970 after he injured his left knee during the last Celtics game for the regular season. Brian Babineau/NBAE via Getty Images. A high school teacher who had sex with a 17 year old student did not violate state child abuse laws, a Superior Court judge ruled Thursday. Thrifty was the guy who collected unused nip bottles from teammates on flights, back when they still flew commercial. Visitation will begin on Tuesday, February 16, 2010, at 4:30 p.m. followed by Mass of Christian burial at 6:00 p.m. Sanders won eight championships. Sanders is a NBA Hall of Famer and a member of the Boston Celtics franchise in the '60s and '70s that built a dynasty, giving him eight championships in his 13-year career. 184. I was in love with Jackie Robinson. Firstly, the Rookie Transition Program was brought to the NBA by Bob Dandridge, but unfortunately, the first year, it didnt fit well. Russell who had seen Cousy's ESPN interview was there, too. Im living proof of that.. 1:00. Nobody. And Russell would engage in that struggle in a way that few athletes did.". He wasnt used to losing.. But he remains engaged. Same as New York. In background, right to left, Tom "Satch" Sanders, John Havlicek, Don Nelson. They wanted to know what we were doing in that neighborhood. Wed fly first class sometimes, and hed be a pain in the ass. We have no records of past relationships for Satch Sanders. The Celtics even retired his number No. Off the court, they were not spending a lot of time in each others company.". But I do think that Cousy, because he was Cousy, thought he could do more. The Celtics would again go with a familiar face in the role of head coach, hiring former champion forward and then-assistant coach Tom "Satch" Sanders t o succeed Heinsohn, a legend in his own right who'd also won eight titles with Boston as a player. Satch loved life to the fullest and always had a positive attitude and a smile on his face and was always happy and laughing. Ginny's remarkable swimming . In 1963, someone broke into Bill Russells home, scrawled insults on the walls, and defecated in his bed. Cousy cooperated in part with the hope he could overcome old resentments and slights and mend this frayed connection with Russell, who didnt talk to Pomerantz. He was preceded in death by his parents, Frank and Bea Sanders and his sisters, Joyce Gunnoe and Snook Smithers. I say goodbye and shake his hand: the one that threw so many perfect passes to his teammates. I dont foist my opinions on them. The evening begins at 6 p.m. with a cocktail-hour and silent auction followed by dinner, dancing, and awards. I sincerely meant it. Sanders won eight championships. But something else was happening at the outset of the Celtics dynasty. Sanders sat down with Andcape to reflect on his Celtics championship memories, getting words of wisdom from Jackie Robinson as a kid, humorous stories with Russell, racism he dealt with all over the country, his hopes for Black executives in NBA front offices, todays Celtics and much more. Hartman was his name, Coach Hartman. Thomas Ernest "Satch" Sanders (born November 8, 1938) is an American retired college and professional basketball player and coach. "Statistics" is included to allow non-English speakers to find our pages. Tom "Satch" Sanders. ' Sanders said, raising his quiet voice into a loud, braying imitation of Ramseys Kentucky drawl. Patrick's Bar and No Grill held its 13th annual Craig "Satch" Sanders .1K Memorial Run on Sunday. The guy I used to talk to a lot was (Rajon) Rondo. He went up over Clifton and grabbed the rebound, went back up and laid it up. We were super motivated.. Himself - Boston Celtics 1960-1973 (as Tom 'Satch' Sanders). One thing is certain: Were no different from anyone else reaching their seventies and eighties, or whatever nineties when you start saying, I wonder how much time I have left. Thats how he behaved.. Nothings going to change my memories about those places. At 85, with Jeannines constant assistance, Russell still makes many appearances on behalf of the NBA. Russ has always been, quote unquote, that kind of guy, he said. According to our records, Satch Sanders is possibly single. Hed go anywhere to capture a worthy landscape, edging along some rocky bluff in Boothbay Harbor, or lugging his gear through a bursting autumn forest in Vermont. Run out of bounds. Dont run on the court.. But Cousy, a point guard, was beginning to transform the league. It originally aired in December 2018. NOTE. Every night a pain develops somewhere, said Cousy. And then said it was awfully kind of him to share her.. Harvard posted 9-5 records in Ivy play in 1973-74 and 1974-75, finishing third in Sanders' second season. He is a singer, an actor, a scriptwriter, and a famous TikToker. Thomas Ernest "Satch" Sanders (born November 8, 1938) is an American former professional basketball player and coach. Massachusetts could get another snowstorm Friday: What areas were the jackpot zones in this past storm? The strength in those thoughts and opinions also. I didnt want to play in the NBA because my man Cal Ramsey the year before had been drafted by the St. Louis Hawks and [was] let go. Finals Legend or Loser? And then started thinking that he should have done more. So Im the piker, because Ive got six. In Monday's victory over the Bucs, the Cowboys kicker missed an NFL record four extra . Brett Maher missed only three extra points in the regular season, going 50-of-53. Hed come to our practices, and the worst part about it was that he knew what the plays were, and he still blocked our shots. I asked him what time his wife got home last night, recalls Satch. Image: Instagram.com, @thomassanders Source: UGC. Gary Waleik Producer, Only A GameGary Waleik is a producer for Only A Game. Think about all those kids. They made their way to the rest room. I watch every Celtics game that I can. When the audience was requested to stand he managed to stand a couple of times. When he brought in [Derrick] White, the kid from San Antonio, hes a hell of a guard. and The Black Fives Foundation | Copyright 2003-2023 The Black Fives Foundation all images unless otherwise noted. ", "And he hoped this conversation would lead to a higher ground in their relationship, a deeper friendship," Pomerantz says. K.C. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Your email address will not be published. For whatever reason, it didnt have the success or didnt have the look that the NBA wanted. Satch Sanders is a member of the following lists: People from New York City, 1938 births and Power forwards (basketball).. That whole time there was so much talent. There were Harlem Globetrotters and Eastern League players and Harlem Rens, he remembers, great players never blessed by time or opportunity. Its just focus on this time and try and get the most that they can out of this period in time. Gary "Satch" Sanders, 64, of Indian Harbour Beach, FL passed away on July 30, 2015. All the guys we were playing against in the 50s, all those guys couldve played pro ball and could just get a deal with the Globetrotters. But the nights Sanders . I was saying to myself, I dont know why he feels it necessary to struggle up, because hes a man of years but also relatively poor health, said Sanders. "They weren . NBA Championship Rings: 8. Sanders is tied for third for most NBA championships in a career, and is one of three NBA players with an unsurpassed 8-0 record in NBA Finals series outcomes. The Basketball Hall of Fame makes no representation concerning, and is not responsible for the quality, content, accessibility, nature or reliability of any hyperlinked site. You dont want to be out in these other cities and towns because the problem is the same. He remembers the time fans came close to the court to shout unsavory slurs, prompting Satch to step into the stands and exchange barbs with one particularly rowdy spectator. He introduced initiatives for young players and veterans alike, helping superstar athletes understand and appreciate their status as role models, leaders, and celebrities. Basketball player with the Boston Celtics, 1961-1973. (From Eric Barrow on July 4, 2009, for the New York Daily News Online), Tom "Satch" Sanders defends Jon McGlocklin of the Milwaukee Bucks in 1970. Discover Satch Sanders's Biography, Age, Height, Physical Stats, Dating/Affairs, Family and career updates. "So he tried to convince the African-American Celtics to stay. Tom Heinsohn played with Havlicek for three years and coached him for eight, including during the latters peak. Drugs were everywhere, he says. [1] After his playing retirement, he was a head coach for the Harvard Crimson men's basketball team and the Boston Celtics. Satch Sanders remembers what happened at the team hotel before the game. Wilt Chamberlain was a real force, very strong, would live forever, and suddenly he has the nerve to die. The other pointing left says White. And I was stunned. Celtics legend Tom "Satch" Sanders was thrilled to be finally voted into the Naismith Hall of Fame this month, but he wasn't too excited about having to travel to Indianapolis to be . Hed ask, order two Baccardis, order two of this or that.. He is not dating anyone. We were going to play preliminary games at Madison Square Garden. I never left here because I was in love with Harlem.. He died at home of complications from Parkinsons Disease two-and-a-half months later, five days shy of his 87th birthday. Satch Sanders started 13 seasons in the NBA, all with Red Auerbach's Celtics, winning eight titles, third-most in NBA history. He played his entire professional career as a power forward for the Boston Celtics of the National Basketball Association (NBA). The one that held the pen as he wrote a letter to Bill Russell. We all went to each others homes during the holiday season when we were in Boston. He said, Well, its a reality for us, in that accent of his. Bill Russell was helped down the center aisle by his wife, Jeannine. This also described the legacy of a great athlete. Hes still the voice of outrage whenever calls start going the other way, and the most visible connection to the old guard for todays Celtics. Brittany and Patrick Mahomes welcomed their second baby, son Bronze, in late November 2022 . Satch Sanders girlfriend, wife list. Required fields are marked *. According to our Database, He has no children. This man was on it. They werent sure I was going to make it, said Heinsohn. Located in Springfield, Massachusetts, the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame is an independent non-profit 501(c)(3) organization dedicated to promoting, preserving and celebrating the game of basketball at every level. Sanders was one of thousands of kids playing ball on courts like Mount Morris or at tournaments like The Rucker. ft. of basketball history. Havlicek, he kept [him] on the bench because he wanted a sixth man. Patrick Mahomes and Wife Brittany Share First Photo of Son's Face at Disney After Super Bowl Win. Gary Pomerantzs bookis "The Last Pass: Cousy, Russell, the Celtics and What Matters in the End.". I can tell you everything that was on these corners. says Jumpshot. Satch Sanders started 13 seasons in the NBA, all with Red Auerbach's Celtics, winning eight titles, third-most in NBA history. 1960-61; 1961-62; 1962-63; I saw some serious defense being played, chasing guys down, grabbing their s out of the air. "He put a trauma on opposing shooters," Pomerantz adds. What do you recall about starting the National Basketball Players Associations Rookie Transition Program? Satch is survived by his loving wife Jody and cats Kona and Kaui. Other guys (Al) Horford came up and wanted to talk to me. (505) 431 - 5992; man jumps off cruise ship after fight with wife Nothings changed. The reason why they started bringing Blacks in was because of the Globetrotters. I see the deputy commissioner Mark Tatum is Black. I shake his hand and ask him how hes doing. The first man up to replace was Black. I dont dwell on my mortality, but its just human nature.. Sometimes, hes 4, 5 feet away from the hoop and you pass it out. But as he discovered last December, prior to hospitalization for breathing-related issues, that walk from the elevator to the press room can now take a while. When Heinsohn got hurt and he went to the all-Black starting five, he was supposed to do that. We were unable to subscribe you to WBUR Today. Calling it wisdom is always up for debate. Satch Sanders is a member of the following lists: People from New York City, 1938 births and Power forwards (basketball). That slow heartbeat very much defined the man. Ed Macauley said kid, this is the pros, were going to lose some games. See "He said, 'What was I thinking? Guys had stuff in common and we enjoyed each others company. Nearly 200,000 people visit the Hall of Fame Museum each year to learn about the game, experience the interactive exhibits and test their skills on the Jerry Colangelo "Court of Dreams." I went over to him, shook his hand, and said, Big guy, how you doing? Russell was a pain in the ass. Racial tensions were high in the U.S., and that carried over into some NBA locker rooms. Help keep Satch Sanders profile up to date. And we talked about this first meaningful conversation we probably ever had in our relationship. Cousy says that his fellow rookie, Chuck Cooper, was a "5 or 6 on a 10 scale," talent-wise. Submit. Sanders was added into the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame in 2011. Jones and Sam Jones, decided not to play. [1] ", "I do a lot of meditating these days, thinking about the old days," Cousy says. Sanders, who won eight NBA championships with the Celtics, said William told him he played some basketball when he was a child, but that soccer consumed most of his time. After his playing retirement, he served as a head coach for the Harvard Crimson men's basketball team and the Boston Celtics. In a recent interview from 2020 with Celtics' legend Cedric Maxwell, two members of the all-Black starting five, Sam Jones and Satch Sanders, recalled their memory of the day in league history . And Cousy had no idea what to expect. We did Chicago. Left to me, I wouldve sold it as a consultancy. And Russell said, Were going home. ", "The white players gave it consideration," Sanders says. I never forgave Sam for one thing. "And he was talking in a breezy way about Russells extraordinary athleticism," Pomerantz says. Thats the meat of this whole thing, but whats the league office like? Sam [Jones] was down in Florida. Custom Content. The big point is that the coach was able to keep the stress, to keep the pressure on them to do it his way, and they do it. The Celtics drafted you with the eighth overall pick in the 1960 NBA draft. "And after three or four beers its, like, midnight. So normally I go to church services. He was diagnosed with sleep apnea last December, but returned to his analysts job at NBC Sports Boston in January, and roared back into action. We have estimated Russell wore his anger even more prominently on his sleeve. And Bill Russell said, 'Yes I did. Thank you! Both men broke out laughing over the grimness of it all. 1000 Hall of Fame AvenueSpringfield, Massachusetts 01105. More NBA Transactions Russ chased Heiney down all over. Thomas Ernest Sanders (Satch) Born: November 8, 1938 in New York, New York. The shot still had to be blocked. Im talking about playing with the world champion Boston Celtics! "And I didnt blame him then, and I blame him even less now.". The Celtics gathered for a postseason dinner. And then there was Thrifty. $ 1000000. Its not life-threatening usually. Then eight months later Beth called me and said, Bob, weve decided to tell some close friends its not a-fib, its Parkinsons. We had incidents across the board, so when folks tell me about Boston, they only like white players, I said, These are ignorant people. You dont want to be in Los Angeles. More Sanders Pages. Tap into Getty Images' global-scale, data-driven insights and network of over 340,000 creators to create content exclusively for your brand. His Harvard teams had an . He played his entire professional career as a power forward for the Boston Celtics of the National Basketball Association (NBA). Satch Sanders is a Boston Celtics great who played for thirteen years and won eight world championships. I do because we used to play against Clifton when he was a Knickerbocker. August 14, 2011. [] Celtics basketball great Tom (Satch) Sanders remembers some legends of Harlem basketball. They didnt want those first ones to do any of the Globetrotter stuff. Thats important. Sanders won eight NBA championships and is tied for third for the most NBA championships. Mifflintown, PA 17059. But Boston has never been an easy place for Russell to visit with geographical concerns the least of it stemming from his troubled relationship with the city and its racially-torn history. Fox 25's Maria Stephanos will be the evening's . Boston Celtics legend Tom Satch Sanders sat alone on a bench enjoying the Tuesday morning breeze outside of a Cracker Barrel with his face mask in hand just in case. He is from USA. Guys are trying to talk about who will be left standing, a last man standing kind of thing, he said of their fellow Celtic survivors. The hard-to-read inscription on the trophy made reference to N.Y. University alumni with Celtics Hall of Famer Tom "Satch" Sanders' name on it. The eight-time NBA champion spoke about the state of the current Celtics, racism in the 1960s, the need for more Black NBA execs and more. When people tell me about LA, that is such bulls. SOUTHBRIDGE - During Senior Night last week, the boys' high school basketball team put the focus on Celtics legend Tom "Satch" Sanders and his wife, Virginia, of neighboring Sturbridge. Note, this is done in an automated way, so we apologize for any errors, & please report any suggested corrections. Sanders would go on to complete many more firsts, becoming the first black coach in the Ivy League and entering the Hall of Fame as a member of the most decorated team in NBA history. That was clear. But if Russ can do it, I can certainly follow along. Luck Is Often the Difference", "Syracuse Nationals at Boston Celtics Box Score, March 13, 1962", "Satch Sanders Enters Basketball Hall of Fame", BasketballReference.com: Satch Sanders (as coach), BasketballReference.com: Satch Sanders (as player), Sports-Reference.com: Satch Sanders (as college coach), https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Satch_Sanders&oldid=1125327072, This page was last edited on 3 December 2022, at 12:09. I came in for two years. I didnt need someone to paint a picture. In NBA history, only teammates Bill Russell and Sam Jones have won more championship rings during their playing careers (three other teammates, John Havlicek, Tom Heinsohn and K. C. Jones, also won eight championship rings). Dana-Farber Cancer Institute is a 501(c)(3) organization, ITEM IS NOT FOUND IN CACHE: /about-us/news-and-publications/press-room/jimmy-fund-press-releases/2011/gin-and-satch/ : ANCILLARY_NAV, Jimmy Fund/Variety Children's Charity Theatre Collections. Thats just his nature, what he was about. But thats how John was. Heinsohn and I used to get together often, so the relationships stayed. He told me that I ought to be serious about school and stuff. If Russell was the franchises backbone, Havlicek was its unrelenting heartbeat. [4], Following his playing career Sanders became the basketball coach at Harvard University, a position he held until 1977. rabun county crime; paris dauphine university fees for international students; mazda ceo email address; the wrong missy opening scene; expungement clinic philadelphia I told Red that I didnt want to play with the Celtics. "These are, in many ways, the ultimate teammates," Pomerantz says. We talked about growing the program with baseball, football. He is also one of three NBA players with an unsurpassed 8-0 record in NBA Finals . He was a 6'6" and 210 lb power forward. He dropped the soda. Jones were both part of the Bill Russell-led Boston Celtics dynasty. 16 in 1973. There was the Eastern League, but they didnt have the chance to get into the NBA. Sanders is tied for third for most NBA championships in a career, and is one of three NBA players with an unsurpassed 8-0 record in NBA Finals series outcomes. Satch Sanders Wiki: Salary, Married, Wedding, Spouse, Family Thomas Ernest "Satch" Sanders (born November 8, 1938) is a retired American college and professional basketball player and coach. But Cooper was something else. Thats important because thats the game. The cops pulled out their guns. Byline: Brian Lee. It was a mistake. I said, John, wait a minute, if we had a robot heart like the one youve got, wed be able to run as long and fast as youre doing, but we dont have that benefit. "But I notice I blank out the negatives as much as I can. The call came decades after Sanders made Ivy League history in leading Harvard's men's basketball team from 1973-77. "I would rather have played for the New York Knicks at that point," said Tom "Satch" Sanders. It was a fun experience. I recognize that people feel the way they feel. Three blocked shots in one defensive possession. We used to have those conversations the kind of conversation many older people have, as they recognize that there may be a time limit, he said. He . Inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame in 2011. Sanders' eight championships are tied third for most NBA championships and he is one of three NBA players with an unsurpassed 80 record in NBA Finals series outcomes. Tom "Satch" Sanders of the Boston Celtics shoots a free throw during an NBA game at the Boston Garden circa 1960 in Boston, Massachusetts. He announced he was ending his playing career in 1973. Uh we talk uh ", "And he just broke down sobbing," Pomerantz says. "And he basically said, 'Cooz, whatever you might have done wouldn't have been helpful.' Football used to send people to our sessions. He stayed in New England taking the reins of the basketball program at Harvard University for four seasons before returning to the Celtics, first as an assistant coach and then briefly as a head coach. Satch Sanders and Bob Cousy were out to dinner last spring, and Sanders, wary and bemused, looked across the table at his 90-year-old friend. These two are special. What does that say about the Celtics, too, that theyve had a lot of Black head coaches? Every time Id do something, shed [say]: Jackie wouldnt do that. [Jones]. They went to movies, listened to jazz and drank at bars. Their bond was tested on Feb. 28, 1952, after a game in Raleigh. July 31, 2022 Facebook; Twitter; Email; Email; 2; . We had bags of groceries in our arms. Ho Where is Liz Torres now? And it brought a tear to my eye. He was born on November 8, 1938 and his birthplace is New York City. He was one of the first NBA writers to cover professional basketball in the Olympics with the 1992 Dream Team in Barcelona, and took a detour out to western Massachusetts to chronicle the rise of John Calipari and UMass basketball. And Russell became emotional at this point.". 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